var gptSlot = googletag.defineSlot('/21776187881/FW-Responsive-Main_Content-Slot1', [[728, 90], [468, 60], [300, 100], [320, 50]], 'div-gpt-ad-b1-i-fw-ad-1').defineSizeMapping(gptSizeMaps.banner1).setCollapseEmptyDiv(true).addService(googletag.pubads()); But the rollout has been slower than expected amid delivery delays from manufacturers. you need to think about all those people Who went home to tell their families they dont have a job anymore. Gaf sent out 369 loads by contractors in the month of Dec 2019 alone. UPS' system to control fuel was "pretty weak," because "they didn't really focus on that,"Bedardsaid. Delivery Service. UPS. Over the summer, the union filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board in response to TForce cutting the maximum speed of trucks by 3 mph a move that angered many drivers. The fuel economy on older units is also poor. You are using an out of date browser. How about 2 hrs free sitting at the dock. The fix: "July 1, we addressed the situation with this shipper," Bedard said, without going into detail. Find out more about salaries and benefits at TForce Freight. Find your private company bowl on Fishbowl, join the hottest conversation with your colleagues anonymously. Upload your resume . Good carriers dont run old trucks like we do today, Bedard said. Left my former employer of 5+ years and moved across the state. It alleges that TForce, formerly UPS Freight, violated federal law by modifying the speed limiters without consulting the union and refusing to negotiate after the fact. Not enough freight to allow new drivers to work consistently, Inconsistent, layoffs, a lot of waiting for new guys to start, Pay and benefits pretty good from the union contract, Always cutting runs and routes for the numbers game they play , doesn't care if the customers freight gets delivered !road runs always getting cut while they contact work out to subcontractors, They downsize when needed and jobs get cut, Some good people work there Semi decent electronic scan software, A lot of favoritism as far as promotions Hectic work environment with upper management 5 - 6 day work weeks. When we bought the company, the trucks were running at 68 miles per hour and then we did the study of our peers in the U.S. and we found out that everybody is at 65. If you want to work for free be my guest. tforce freight tforce freight inc tforce freight tforce freight inc tforce freight ltl tforce freight's TForce Freight LTL Global Presence Search All Employees Key Employees of TForce Freight LTL Victoria Williamson We have a fantastic terminal, like 80 to 100 doors, he said of one California facility. Overview 166 Reviews 269 Jobs 75 Salaries 8 Interviews 55 Benefits -- Photos 124 Diversity + Add a Review TForce Freight Reviews Updated Mar 2, 2023 Find Reviews Clear All Full-time, Part-time English Filter Found 158 of over 166 reviews Sort Popular Popular COVID-19 Related Its something that was never really monitored at UPS Freight, to get more out of every stop.. Were not gonna run a terminal with 50 bills a day, he said. Anything that shows the truck below the posted speed is a risk to the driver. Why Did It Happen? He previously worked at newspapers in the San Francisco Bay Area, including the San Jose Mercury News. Its closing some terminals, and leasing out space at others. He has been covering the Canadian trucking industry for more than 20 years and holds a CDL. Read employee reviews and ratings on Glassdoor to decide if TForce Freight is right for you. CEO Alain Bedard has signaled willingness to work with the Teamsters, which represent employees at some of TFIs Canadian operations. James Menzies is editor of Today's Trucking. The company accomplished that largely by cutting or repricing unprofitable freight from its network. The problem: "I'll give you another stupid example: COD," Bedard said. For sure, the demand is more than the supply.. It alleges , https://www.tforcefreight.com/ltl/apps/WeatherAdvisory?p=update, TForce Freight operations have been adversely impacted today, Friday, June 17th. Diluted earnings per share from continuing operations . For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The problem: "There's some things that we need to do in order to reduce our [fuel] costs," Bedard said. Contractors out the @ss. TForce Freight Part of TFI International Is this your company? TForce Freight insights Based on 213 survey responses Areas for improvement Sense of belonging Trust in colleagues Support from manager Horrible management and no home life just horrendous Hourly Employee (Current Employee) - Kentucky - February 18, 2023 Management is by far the worst I've ever heard of or seen. }); Reducing truck speeds is part of a long list of measures TFI has been taking to improve profits at an LTL operation that struggled to make money under UPS (NYSE:UPS). Youre the one who dont care when they fire all the sales staff. UPS Freight will now be TFIs largest subsidiary, and will make TFI one of the five biggest LTL companies in North America. Arrive Logistics, an Austin, Texas-based freight brokerage, reduced its workforce by 10% on April 4. Bonus Program. Company reviews. I have 60 shipments a day in that huge terminal.. They include one location in Chicago and two in West Virginia, while Bdard didnt identify the fourth. gptAdSlots.push(gptSlot); Starting Thursday 1/26, payments for TForce Freight invoices will no longer be accepted in The UPS Billing Center. googletag.enableServices(); The fix: Signing new deals with customers that have operating ratios below 90%. Services Include: Regional, interregional & long-haul service, all with one pickup More than 15,000 one and two day lanes Cross-continent three- and four-day service And now, whoops, he comes up with a shipment for $70, because we had an agreement with him and we have lots of agreement with customers Our largest account, we were running with this large account 120 OR. TFI's goal is to get TForce Freight to an operating ratio of 96% within a year. Other common formats are lastNameInitialfirstName and lastNameInitial-firstName . So, if you stop doing that, well, this is addition by subtraction," Bedard said. For critical shipments, upgrade to our Expedited service. What he gets in return are pissed off union line haul drivers who end up working more hours for less money. No work life balance. googletag.pubads().collapseEmptyDivs(); You must log in or register to post here. Wow! Jan 28, 2021 Nearly 15,000 Teamsters are concerned for their future, now that UPS has sold off its LTL and trucking operation to TFI International. Contact Information. Find jobs. googletag.cmd.push(function() { First of all let me say that I am a road driver so please remember that this is coming from a road drivers point of view. But Im sure our unions will cave and encourage us to sign the deal presented (its the best they can do, I have heard that lie several times only to be shown the companies negotiating plan after the fact by a friend which show we could have got much more on every aspect of the contract.). New Article Yesterday on Potential ABF purchase, Saber-rattling begins ahead of LTL labor negotiations, TEAMSTERS PREPARE FOR MAJOR FREIGHT NEGOTIATIONS WITH TFORCE, ABF, TFI may be interested in talking to ArcBest about operational collaboration, TFI chief says. You are using an out of date browser. Support functions cuts. Remember who is running this train wreck called the 'UPS Freight Train'. googletag.cmd.push(function() { By accepting this notice and continuing to browse our website you confirm you accept our Terms of Use & Privacy Policy. you stole my thunder! Could it be HRS has more contractors than any other terminal? So, that reduces our costs.". googletag.defineSlot('/21776187881/FW_Super_Leaderboard', [[300, 50], [970, 90], [300, 100], [728, 90]], 'div-gpt-ad-1668097889433-0').defineSizeMapping(gptSizeMaps.banner2).addService(googletag.pubads()); Copyright 2008-2023, Glassdoor, Inc. "Glassdoor" and logo are registered trademarks of Glassdoor, Inc. PO Box 10128 | Detroit, MI 48210 | (313) 842-2600 | [emailprotected], Teamsters Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Foundation, PO Box 10303 | Detroit, MI 48210 | (313) 842-2615 | [emailprotected], Copyright 2015 | All Rights Reserved, Bedard may also have foreshadowed the purchase three months ago, when, Wall Street seems to agree that TFI wants to strengthen the UPS Freight operation. Coverage. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Stay up to date on technology, regulations and trucking life. Challenger Motor Freight Layoffs September 26, 2022 In "C Layoffs" TForce is on a roll, doing better in the profit column than in its previous life as UPS Freight. Its an accident waiting to happen, the driver said. TForce Freight Salaries trends. "It will take us some time, but this is, again, it's a small part of our business," Bedard said. "We're going to spend a lot of time and energy working with the team there to make things happen, as fast as we can," Bedard said. ET, 'No sweat': TFI open to more M&A as it streamlines UPS Freight, FedEx, UPS take divergent LTL freight paths, TFI's textbook M&A strategy could lead to US headquarters, Estes Express Lines president shares plans for trucking companys future, Driver shortage eases slightly in 2022 but relief likely temporary, ATA reports, Why A. Duie Pyle execs answer drivers questions over breakfast, Carriers asked to weigh in on how recreational marijuana affects trucking, ITS Logistics opens Indiana warehouse with eyes on growing national footprint, Uber Freight partners with WattEV, CHEP on Southern California routes, Inside the busy world of parcel logistics, Preparing Your Business in Times of Economic Downturn, Build Resiliency to Futureproof Your Organization, FedEx urges customers to shift volumes from UPS to avoid strike risks, Yusen Logistics continues M&A spree with US 3PL Taylored Services, FMCSA close to real reconsideration of safety rating system, The Real ROI of Digital Dock Scheduling Software, Requirements for Federal EV Charging Funding Come into Focus, Four Ways to Offset Increased Driver Compensation, Old Dominion reveals more of its succession plan, ArcBest sells fleet maintenance business to Cox Automotive for $100M. So whos the buttercup? You get a worse attitude., Bedard told analysts in July that the company reduced the speed of trucks to be safer on the road.. "Although, so far, we have not introduced our last mile guys yet," Bedard said. You are laid either off or not according to most State unemployment insurance providers. googletag.enableServices(); You can possibly go 729 days with no paid vacation/sick time off available. Wall Street seems to agree that TFI wants to strengthen the UPS Freight operation. Lots of Clerks and Part-time dockworkers are laid off. TForce Freight TForce | Layoffs GaffneyRddriver Jan 30, 2020 G GaffneyRddriver Member Jan 30, 2020 #1 Here in Gaffney bottom seven road drivers were laid off to the dock. TDU is committed to working with TForce Teamsters across the country to build a militant network of members, stewards and officers. UPS is required to meet all its pension obligations acquired prior to the point of saleand TForce Freight is responsible for making pension contributions for the life of the contract. These particular drivers if they are in the 90% are guaranteed 8hrs a day and 40hrs a week. 109 reviews from TForce Freight employees about TForce Freight culture, salaries, benefits, work-life balance, management, job security, and more. TForce Freight Employee Review Layoffs When Business is Slow Road Dispatch Operations Supervisor (Former Employee) - Ohio - 26 September 2022 I was hired at TForce recently. googletag.defineSlot('/21776187881/fw-responsive-main_content-slot2', [[468, 60], [728, 90], [300, 100], [320, 50]], 'div-gpt-ad-1665767472470-0').defineSizeMapping(gptSizeMaps.banner1).addService(googletag.pubads()); These include cookies that allow you to be remembered as you explore the site within a single session or, if you request, from session to session. The fix: "We are adjusting the speed of our truck to 65 to be safer on the road," he said. The companys move to start scaling back the size of the network isnt surprising. Bdard said that goal is doable and noted Old Dominion Freight Line and Saia, two LTL giants, have operating ratios at or below 90%. Tforce Freight, Inc. * 1 Principals See who the company's key decision makers are 2 Contacts Reach the right people with access to detailed contact information. He maintained the company will achieve an operating ratio below 90%, potentially within the next six quarters. var gptSlot = googletag.defineSlot('/21776187881/FW-Responsive-Main_Content-Slot1', [[728, 90], [468, 60], [300, 100], [320, 50]], 'div-gpt-ad-b1-i-fw-ad-1').defineSizeMapping(gptSizeMaps.banner1).setCollapseEmptyDiv(true).addService(googletag.pubads()); But Bdard signaled there could be more to come next year. 9 See similar companies for insight and prospecting. Works with Central Dispatch to develop a linehaul plan to effectively and efficiently move freight to destinations within Company service standards. googletag.cmd.push(function() { But he also suggested there are limits: We live with it, we work with them. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Wall Street seems to agree that TFI wants to strengthen the UPS Freight operation. Please contact Kathy Alvis at 804-908-1060 or Jennifer Trimmer at 804-546-0672. TFI International is working to shore up UPS Freight's weaknesses, now months after the Canada-based firm acquired that segment from UPS and renamed it TForce Freight. While the company is continuing to pursue freight that fits for TForce Freight, it is now moving forward on trying to rein in costs. Let's come together and help all those in need.Please comment current company if hiring. It may not display this or other websites correctly. No work for us!!! Working together as a Team, we put the T in TForce. A contract campaign that listens to and unites members around our priority issues has to begin in 2022 if were going to win the contract we deserve at TForce Freight in 2023. Theyre going to close five terminals and theyre going to send your freight to other companies And when the contract comes theyre going to put it to you And youre just gonna lay down and vote for it. He was coming into town from a run for this other company and the UPSF dispatcher called him and wanted to know if he was available for a 500-mile turn run. googletag.enableServices(); Log In or Sign Up to compare rates side-by-side. Just two months after buying DLS Worldwide, TFI International Inc., a Canadian transportation and logistics company, announced their plans to buy UPS Freight for $800 million. The problem: "We used to do about 1,500 shipments a day for less than $100 out of 33,000, 34,000. I agree ! We want them to drive less miles, and pick up more freight, Alain Bedard said of drivers during a Q4 earnings call with analysts. UPSF gets really P.O. The Layoff discussion User says: Central Freight Lines readies for bankruptcy regarding Union Pacific Corp. They fired the entire sales force . TForce Freight is "outperforming expectation," Bedard said. That doesn't necessarily save a lot of money, but it minimizes environmental risk and helps control fuel costs, he added. USPS Tracking 9400 1000 0000 The bottom peel-off portion of your USPS Tracking label ; How can I leave delivery instructions?. But the results also highlighted that TFIs effort to remake the legacy UPS Freight operation now called TForce Freight wont be quick or easy. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. (Photo: Brian Straight/FreightWaves) Seniority bully structure. googletag.defineSlot('/21776187881/fw-responsive-main_content-slot5', [[728, 90], [468, 60], [320, 50], [300, 100]], 'div-gpt-ad-1665767778941-0').defineSizeMapping(gptSizeMaps.banner1).addService(googletag.pubads()); googletag.defineSlot('/21776187881/fw-responsive-main_content-slot3', [[728, 90], [468, 60], [320, 50], [300, 100]], 'div-gpt-ad-1665767553440-0').defineSizeMapping(gptSizeMaps.banner1).addService(googletag.pubads()); A group CREATED BY EMPLOYEES for all employees of TForce Freight to discuss work related info, issues, and ideas. A friend of mine, who is directly above me on the Road board, is laid off. I wonder if the drivers on lay off appreciate how the company manipulates the ( one way freight ) verbiage in the contract? This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. }); googletag.cmd.push(function() { This is BS, great agreement contract we . TForce Freight Reviews Updated Feb. 4, 2023 Find Reviews Clear All Full-time, Part-time English Filter Found 156 of over 164 reviews Sort Popular Popular Highest Rating Lowest Rating Most Recent Oldest first 2.8 37 % Recommend to a Friend 40 % Approve of CEO Paul Hoelting 11 Ratings This is his right and we have even discussed him hiring me to drive his tractor occasionally pulling loads for the other company while he works for UPSF. Working together as a Team, we put the, https://www.truckingboards.com/bb/threads/if-t-force-wants-less-miles-and-more-freight.116730/. TForce Freight has an overall rating of 2.8 out of 5, based on over 115 reviews left anonymously by employees. The companys U.S. LTL unit, which includes the vast majority of the UPS Freight acquisition, saw its operating ratio creep up by six basis points to 90.7% after achieving a remarkable 90.1% in the previous quarter with large trucking operations that had been barely profitable. If the freight isn't right for TForce, but it's conveyable, then TFI can ask UPS to take it. googletag.cmd.push(function() { window.googletag = window.googletag || {cmd: []}; Price increases and capacity tightness that were first seen in the U.S. market have migrated to Canada, Bedard said, as of about November. To put in place a strong union leadership in the IBT, and to work within our locals to inform and unite our membership to defend and improve our union standards and contract. Keep it up, there will be none. See TForce Freight salaries collected directly from employees and jobs on Indeed. First is the fact that we have EXTRA board drivers with no set start time or set run that they perform. Losing money during a few months each year is "something that we're going to be working on with the team," he said, not divulging further detail. If theres a way to fight it thats what we need to do not just lay down. 2 salaries for 2 jobs at TForce Freight in Chataignier, LA. There has always been a big difference between drivers and management. They are not authored by Glassdoor. ", The fix: TFI could add doors and remove terminals, Bedard said. Salary. What is Teamster Rank & File Education and Legal Defense Foundation (TRF)? I voted against the contract and if the majority had've done the same we wouldn't be in this situation today. Facilities needs to be upgraded. if you go to work for FedEx Ground as a contract driver for one of their owner operators. When we bought the company, the trucks were running at 68 miles per hour and then we did the study of our peers in the U.S. and we found out that everybody is at 65. I'm learning a lot from my TDU brothers and sisters. I work for FedEx Ground contractors on call and have shown up wearing a FedEx Ground uniform at my UPSF service center also. He told me he's not working every day which I found odd since I still saw contractors doing city work at the same time. If all of Bedards peers were jumping off cliffs if appears Bedard would join them. Dive Insight: TFI is one of the best at knowing how to absorb a company while cutting costs. The problem: "What I can tell you so far is that we got 12,000 doors: 10,000 that we own, 2,000 that we lease. googletag.pubads().enableSingleRequest(); TForce Freight salary trends based on salaries posted anonymously by TForce Freight employees. The unions national negotiating committee for TForce quietly filed a charge with the National Labor Relations Board on July 12. It's already talking to other carriers. Having five terminals to serve that area is "a nightmare for the lineup," he said. TForce Freight's extensive transportation network, experienced employees, and efficient systems mean your freight will be picked up and delivered on time. Doesnt matter who gets hurt in the process. Hes reduced the speed of the trucks to save money on fuel, nothing more, nothing less. The company generated about $2 million a year leasing out the unused space. He spent seven years reporting stories in the Balkans and Eastern Europe as a reporter, producer and editor basedin Kosovo. googletag.pubads().collapseEmptyDivs(); The company wanted 1,000 trucks in 2021 but only got 300. | 2 p.m. The real danger is the truck that runs at .01 MPH faster than the one in front of it. Regional, interregional & long-haul service, all with one pickup, Cross-continent three- and four-day service, Technologies to improve shipping, tracking & billing. they refuse to staff the office with clerical help or supervisors/management, and frequently exploit their employees by asking them to work more than their contract states. Webb Estes, the family's fourth generation of leadership, outlined his approach in an interview with Transport Dive. Do you want to work for free? Find out more about, 37% of TForce Freight employees would recommend working there to a friend, Formally UPS Freight now TForce Freight - Not great & not horrible, but it could be a lot better. FreightCenter partners with more than 50 carriers, including TForce Freight, so we can bring you unparalleled freight rates and distribution. 1000 SEMMES AVENUE. Coming soon! }); Looks like things are going to get ugly come contract time with them already entering a grey area based on the definition of (welfare benefits) that along with healthcare benefits are REQUIRED to be provided by TeamCare but now ONLY health insurance is being provided by TeamCare and it doesnt seem they are getting much push back, from the unions, to me this is an indicator of what to come when contracts expire. The problem: "We're not in the business of holding freight just for the pleasure of holding freight," Bedard said. So why run 68? We provide coast to coast coverage within Canada, and between Canada . LTL carriers in the Chicago area are swamped with freight. This change will impact all locations, and you will no longer receive paper delivery receipts. Jim Stinson Go Paperless anytime by visiting the Customize option. TFFC is a leading provider of expedited LTL (Less than truckload) transportation services. window.googletag = window.googletag || {cmd: []}; With a Sales entry-level job at TForce Freight, you'll develop skills in communication and team mentality. googletag.pubads().enableSingleRequest(); Next time you want to work for free for two hours you just think about it do you still got a job for now Buttercup. Le nouveau site simplifie la navigation et donne un accs instantan nos outils de suivi et de reprage pour que vous puissiez immdiatement trouver l'information et les ressources dont vous avez besoin. Feb 10, 2022 There will be layoffs for sure, and less freight in the more spread out terminals. TFI made that first big leap in improved profitability by targeting low-yield freight through pricing or cutting it altogether. googletag.pubads().collapseEmptyDivs(); TForce Freight 401K Plan 5 employees reported this benefit 1.3 3 Ratings Available to US-based employees Change location Employee Comments Showing 1-3 of 3 Jan 5, 2023 1.0 Current Class A Truck Driver in nullnull Only vested after 5 years Helpful Report Oct 27, 2022 2.0 Former Sales Executive in nullnull The terminals dont handle enough shipments to justify their continued operation, Bdard said. Well, we have a long way to go over there," he said. To enable 100% Free unrestricted access & full content, Register or login. Reportedly, UPS has agreed to staff the panels for a transition period. When will the company meet with the union? The Teamsters do not appear to have taken a stance on the bill. It's not uncommon to have to spend extra time multiple . googletag.cmd.push(function() { }); TFI International plans to close four former UPS Freight terminals in December as the Canadian company works to bring down costs and optimize its U.S. LTL network, CEO Alain Bdard told financial analysts on Friday. Name last changed on February 21, 2022. The NLRB is investigating the complaint. He did not quit UPSF and they cannot fire, dismiss or fail to call him for work according to The Contract. TForce | If t force wants less miles and more freight . I run through posted speed limit. Drivers said speed reduction and lack of new trucks are contributing to the wave of post-acquisition departures and TForces struggles to replace them. No benefits until after 90 days. You dont do that within a month with a huge network like the T-Force Freight network, said Bedard. TFI is a major trucking and transport corporation which operates a number of trucking companies, primarily based in Canada. First, TForce contends that Mish's unpaid wages class allegations (claims 1 & 2) seek to cover all non-exempt TForce employees in California since March 10, 2017, but Mish fails to articulate any factual basis that her . freight . If theres a way to fight it thats what we need to do not just lay down. Reach him at james@newcom.ca or follow him on Twitter at @JamesMenzies. Let Transport Dive's free newsletter keep you informed, straight from your inbox. 70 in most of the country someplace 65. I couldn't believe the UPSF contract doesn't have something in it that would prevent that from happening. Contact Nate at, Copyright 2023, All Rights Reserved, FreightWaves, Inc, Teamsters fight TForce Freight truck slowdowns, Loaded & Rolling (Enterprise Fleet News/Analysis), TFI needs drivers at leaner, meaner UPS Freight successor, TFI confronts unprofitable truths in UPS Freight turnaround. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. googletag.pubads().enableSingleRequest(); Can't find what you are looking for? And then we did the study of our peers in the U.S., and we found out that everybody is at 65. He graduated from UC Berkeley, where he studied the history of American policing. Did TFI CEO extend olive branch to Teamsters before UPS Freight deal. The term means that you sit at home, by the phone, wait for THE GREAT UPSF to call and offer you work. 1400 HIL MOR CT CERES, CA 95307 Inside UPS CC - CERES (888) 742-5877 View Details Get Directions About UPS in CERES, CA At UPS, we make shipping easy. I want to make the union stronger. He went out, bought a tractor, and leased it to a large box store chain. The closures account for a small portion of the over 200 facilities TFI acquired as part of its $800 million acquisition of UPS Freight. Pay by the hour with ELDs in the trucks.Perfect sense! Please enter a valid origin postal code. googletag.defineSlot('/21776187881/fw-responsive-main_content-slot2', [[728, 90], [468, 60], [320, 50], [300, 100]], 'div-gpt-ad-1665767737710-0').defineSizeMapping(gptSizeMaps.banner1).addService(googletag.pubads()); Bedard may also have foreshadowed the purchase three months ago, when he said he had no problem with the Teamsters. TFI reported adjusted OR for U.S. LTL is 90.1%. Its way too expensive.. The fix: TFI will address the cyclically at TForce Freight, Bedard said. Average hourly pay for TForce Freight Linehaul Driver: [salary]. We can do better. What we were seeing in the U.S. for the last six months, were now seeing the same story in Canada since early November, he said of being overbooked every day. TForce Freight. We are just scratching the surface, Bedard said, of work to improve the network. Analytics solutions are used to identify visitor interaction with this website for the purpose of improving the site experience or fixing potential issues with the site. I suggest you deal with it because it will not go away. In the first months of ownership, TFI brought TForces operating ratio, from a barely profitable 99% to below 95%. gptAdSlots.push(gptSlot); I am eager to work for a company where I can offer my loyalty and integrity in a . Until THE UNION and THE COMPANY install a western wheel or wheel extra board there will be little employee retention. Pros & Cons are excerpts from user reviews. googletag.pubads().enableSingleRequest(); There are several things that need to be fixed with this particular problem.
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